Cincinnati Reds first baseman Joey Votto lost out in the NL MVP award voting by the narrowest of margins; 302 votes for Giancarlo "Mike" Stanton to 300 votes for Votto. The Reds first baseman led the NL last season in bases on balls (134), on-base percentage (an astounding .454) and OPS (but OPS is junk science so..... forget that). Votto blasted 34 home runs in 2017, driving in 100 runs batted in, and added 179 hits - 34 of which were doubles. Joey was also successful 5 out of 6 times in stolen base attempts. Notably, in 2017 Votto set his career-best mark for fielding percentage at first base with a near-Gold Glove Award winning .997 average.
As the 2017 season progressed Votto was being mentioned as being among the greatest all-time Cincinnati Reds players. Some postulated that already Votto has eclipsed all other non-pitcher Redlegs, spanning the totality of professional baseball in Cincinnati since 1869.
Joey Votto is a great hitter. Are we able to say, unquestionably, that now - on Opening Day 2018 - he is the greatest Red of all-time?
If we are to decide this matter then we must compare Votto, side by side, to the reigning all-time greatest [non-pitcher or -catcher] Cincinnati Red; Frank Robinson.
Frank Robinson won every significant MLB award to date;
Rookie of the Year in 1956
MVP in 1961 & 1966 (only player to have won in both Leagues)
World Series MVP in 1966
Triple Crown in 1966 (leading League in AVG, HR & RBI)
2 World Series rings
14-time All-Star
Gold Glove Award winner
A.L. Manager of the Year (1989)
Hall of Fame inductee
Many of the above honors were awarded to Robie after he was traded away from Cincinnati following the 1965 season. Frank also is one of only 3 individuals to have had his number retired by three different organizations. When he retired in 1976 at the conclusion of 21 Major League seasons, Frank Robinson's 586 lifetime home runs was 4th highest all-time.
Mr Robinson also broke a color-barrier when in 1975 he was named the first-ever black manager of a Major League team (Cleveland).
When baseball fans engage in Hot Stove League talk about who were the greatest baseball players in the history of the game (excluding pitchers, of course, they are a much different beast), those baseball fans should rightly begin with George Herman "Babe" Ruth. The ensuing list should very rapidly include the likes of (in alphabetical order); Henry Aaron, Johnny Bench, Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Pete Rose, Ted Williams. While many fans seem to forget, understand this; Frank Robinson must be included among any ranking of the greatest-ever Major League Baseball players.
In The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (published in 2001), author Bill James ranked Frank Robinson as the third-greatest right fielder of all-time, behind Ruth and Aaron. Whereas Mr James typically writes up a dissertation for the various players (and pitchers) he ranked, evaluating stats and placing the player into historical context, for Robie he only shared a few illuminative quotes others made in reference to Frank. Perhaps the first quote shared about Robinson serves as the best summation;
"He plays the game the way the great ones played it - out of pure hate."
Much of the foregoing takes into account the totality of Frank Robinson's Hall of Fame career. It is not yet fair to rate Joey Votto, in the middle of his own meteoric career, to the curriculum vitae of Frank Robinson. Our purpose here is to analyze the two as Cincinnati Reds.
From 2007 through 2017, Joey Votto has played in parts of 11 Major league seasons. Votto had a cup of coffee in 2007 as a September call-up, logging 24 games played and 89 plate appearances that season. Beginning in 2008 Joey has played in 10 (more or less) full seasons.
From his rookie season in 1956 Frank Robinson played 10 full seasons as a Cincinnati Red, 1956-1965, never having a season with fewer than 562 plate appearances.
Frank Robinson played primarily as an outfielder - left, center and right - but also spent time (parts of 1957-61, 1963) at both first base and third base. Aside from 6 games in left field during his September call-up, Joey Votto strictly has played defense at first base. Frank Robinson, of the two players in question here, easily was the more versatile player.
At this stage in their shared Cincinnati Red careers only 72 games played separate the two hitters. Essentially, the half season Votto missed due to a knee injury in 2014 is the difference. With a nearly equal number of seasons and games played, evaluating Frank & Joey at this stage presents us with just about the best opportunity to see the two at a fairly comparable stage in their respective careers. Let's review this exercise once Votto has played 72 games in 2018, equaling Robinson's 1,502 games played as a Red. Somebody remind me.
Frank Robinson: 1,502 games played
Joey Votto: 1,430 games played
FR: 6,408 plate appearances
JV: 6,141 plate appearances
FR: 5,527 at bats
JV: 5,060 at bats
FR: 1,043 runs scored
JV: 863 runs scored
FR: 1,673 hits
JV: 1,586 hits
FR: 318 doubles
JV: 344 doubles
FR: 50 triples
JV: 17 triples
FR: 324 home runs
JV: 257 home runs
FR: 1,009 runs batted in
JV: 830 runs batted in
FR: 161 stolen bases
JV: 72 stolen bases
FR: 698 bases on balls
JV: 996 bases on balls
FR: 789 strike outs
JV: 1,087 strike outs
FR: .303 batting average
JV: .313 batting average
FR: .389 on-base percentage
JV: .428 on-base percentage
FR: .554 slugging percentage
JV: .541 slugging percentage
Votto plays in an era of MLB that is vastly more offense oriented. Baseball has been experiencing a protracted home run/slugging percentage explosion since the 1990s. Relative to Crosley field, where Frank Robinson played his home games, Votto plays in a home run friendly ballpark. Yet Frank Robinson, at a very similar point in his career to where Joey Votto is today, blasted more home runs, recorded a better slugging percent and drove in a significantly higher number of runs. Certainly, RBI is largely a function of a player's teammates and their own ability to get on base ahead of the batter. Frank Robinson played on teams that had a preponderance of better offense-oriented teammates that were getting on base for Frank to then drive in; from Ted Kluszewski to Vada Pinson to Pete Rose, Gus Bell and Wally Post and Tony Perez. Excepting Brandon Phillips, when he wasn't batting behind Votto, and one season with Shin-Soo Choo in 2012, Votto hasn't had as many opportunities to drive in runs as did Robinson (with apologies to Zack Cozart's 2 good seasons). Perhaps using RBI is a bit unfair. Nevertheless, Robinson proved to be a far better run producer, power hitter, home run hitter than has been true of Votto and Robinson did so in an era and in a home ballpark that did not favor him relative to Votto.
Modern SABRmatricians will tell you that doubles and triples are also, in part, a function of the ballparks in which a player hits. Crosley Field had some deeper dimensions than does Great American Ball Park. Votto's not-insignificant advantage in doubles stands out as notable but Robinson's two-and-a-half times more triples tips the scales back into his own advantage.
The batting averages being within .010 of one another is nearly negligible, a handful of Texas Leaguers over 6,000 at bats could account for that difference. Credit to Votto for having produced a higher mark than Robinson, but Robinson played half his Cincinnati years in a pre-Expansion period that was more pitcher friendly. The batting averages don't suggest provably one batter was a better hitter for average than the other.
Similarly to the slugging statistics, Frank Robinson did not play in an era in which the stolen base was emphasized. To be fair, neither does Joey Votto. And yet Robinson stole more than twice as many bases as has Joey Votto to date. As an outfielder, one should probably expect that Robinson had more speed than does Votto. And if your postulation is as to which was the better hitter then it's also fair to marginalize - or disregard - stolen bases.
It should not surprise fans of the 21st century Reds to discover that Votto has a distinct and sizable advantage in on-base percentage and in walks. Votto is universally recognized as the most patient batter in the game today and for having among his contemporaries an unparalleled eye for the strike zone. SABRmetrics is eroding the old standards for evaluating batters. The old king was AVG. OBP and the junk science of OPS is the new king. The King is dead, long live the King! some SABRites proclaim. I'm skeptical. The Legion of SABR would likely rate Votto's superior ability to get on base as being the deciding factor in rating Votto above Robinson. It is why you hear the growing voices, today, ranking Votto as the Reds all-time greatest hitter.
Excluding the stats (above) comparing games played, plate appearances and at bats (the "just showing up" stats); I see Robinson as having superior stats in 8 of the 12 categories (or 8 of 11, if we agree that the differences in AVG is negligible, or 7 of 10 if we agree to set aside stolen bases).
Joey Votto and Frank Robinson are very close to one another. Closer than I expected when I first researched the foregoing statistics. It's a fair question as to which might be the better hitter and solid justifications may be made for either one. The difference could balance on a razors edge. Perhaps a decade into their careers as Cincinnati Reds they've matched one another. I could accept an arguement on behalf of that point. I could assert that Robinson was marginally better at this stage in their respective careers. Today, on Opening Day 2018, I cannot say that Votto definitively is superior to Robinson.
However, Votto has the inexorable advantage - stipulating a relatively healthy future [fire that scoundrel "team doctor" Doc Hollywood!] - of having in the coming 7 years that he remains potentially under contract with Cincinnati the ability to accumulate far more hits and more home runs and more RBI and certainly to extend his career lead in doubles and maybe to catch up in runs scored. Triples? No. Stolen bases? Let's not be silly.
Someday, but not today, Joey Votto may very well rank as the all-time greatest [non-pitcher or -catcher] Cincinnati Red.
So far, Votto has been an All-Star 5 times. Robinson 6 times as a Red.
Both were NL MVP's for the Reds; Robinson in 1961, Votto in 2010. [Joey wuz robbed in 2017.] Six times Frank Robinson ended up among the top 10 in voting for NL MVP. Joey Votto, too, has wound up among the top 10 in NL MVP voting six times.
Frank was a Rookie of the Year. Votto came in second to a chump catcher for the Chicago Cubs.
Both have won one Gold Glove Award as Reds players; Robie in left field, Joey at first base.
Each has achieved National League leader honors in a number of the same statistical categories. Robinson led the NL in slugging three times (.595, .611, .624) and Votto led the NL in slugging once (.600). Each led the NL in doubles once; Robinson had 51 in 1962, Votto had 40 in 2011. Whereas Robinson led the League in OBP once (.421 in 1962), Votto has, to date, led the NL in OBP six times (ranging from .416 to .474).
Frank Robinson led the National League in runs scored twice, fielding percentage three times.
Votto has led the NL in games played twice (162 games, a full season, both times), plate appearances once (726 in 2013) and in bases on balls five times (110, 94, 135, 143, 134).
If we include stolen bases and fielding as a measure for which player - overall - was superior, can we doubt that Frank Robinson was the better of the two at this point in their respective Cincinnati Red careers?
There aren't too many other Cincinnati Reds which one could fairly compare to either Frank Robinson or Joey Votto.
Johnny Bench is the greatest catcher in the history of MLB, but catchers are not generally compared with other everyday baseball players due to the physically grueling nature of their position and the limitations that additional exertion places on their overall offensive production. And so Johnny Bench with his 17 years in a Reds uniform, having twice blasted 40 or more home runs, having three times driven in 125 or more RBI and won two NL MVP awards - all superior to Votto and Robinson - does not not make for a fair comparable. [Johnny Bench's best years were better than Frank Robinson's best years - both offense and defense, but the relative ease of playing the corner outfield positions aided Robie in having a longer sustained period of greatness relative to Bench. JB's last few years in a Reds uniform were hard to watch.]
Ted Kluszewski, about whom I might be fanatical, played first base 11 years for the Reds. And like Bench, Klu's best seasons were better than Robinson's, but Klu falls just short of Robie (as a Red) in AVG/OBP/SLG, hits, home runs, RBI..... You will recall that from Klu's rookie season in 1947 through the conclusion of the 1952 season, his first six seasons as a Red, the Crosley Field dimensions were vastly more expansive - it was 366' down the right field line. Beginning with the 1953 season, the right field fence was brought in to a shorter distance (342', consider this relative to Great American Ball Park where in 2018 it's 325' down the right field line). This coincided with the dramatic increase in home runs for Klu; from 13 and 16 HRs in 1951 and 1952 to 40, 49 and 47 from 1953-1955. Had Ted Kluszewski played his entire Reds career in the same ballaprks that Robinson and Votto played, this could have been a very different conversation indeed.
Two Cincinnati Reds that might come closest to being comparable to Votto and Robinson, on the surface, are Tony Perez (like Robie a guy who played the corner outfield positions and corner infield positions) and outfielder Edd Roush. Tony Perez is a Hall of Famer, as is Edd Roush. Both had their best Major League seasons wearing the uniform of the Reds. Roush was considered once, mid-century, to have been the greatest all-time Red. Each is fairly included in the conversation of greatest-ever Reds. The most serious demerit against Roush, for some baseball fans, is his having played in the Dead Ball Era. Many baseball fans view Dead Ball Era stats as being suspect, or at least not easily synthesized with modern stats. These are fans of limited conceptualization. Dead Ball Era stats are certainly not a 1-to-1 analog. Dead Ball Era stats require thoughtful consideration.
Perez played his first 13 Major League seasons with Cincinnati, from 1964-1976 (and later, from 1984-1986 too, but we're not including those seasons here) and Edd Roush played 10 full seasons for the Reds, from 1917-1926. This is in approximate alignment with our analysis of Robinson and Votto.
Pete Rose fits the bill as an All-Star, MVP, League Leader, outfielder/infielder, his first 10 and 11 MLB seasons were in a Cincinnati Reds uniform (in fact his first 16 seasons overall but that length of time exceeds our parameters for this discussion). But Pete lacked the power, the home runs, the RBI to serve as a fair comparable.
If we take the FR/JV rundown from above and add in Tony Perez and Edd Roush, we get this;
FR: 1,502 games played
JV: 1,430 games played
TP: 1,589 games played
ER: 1,229 Games played
FR: 6,408 plate appearances
JV: 6,141 plate appearances
TP: 6,460 plate appearances
ER: 5,264 plate appearances
FR: 5,527 at bats
JV: 5,060 at bats
TP: 5,799 at bats
ER: 4,736 at bats
FR: 1,043 runs scored
JV: 863 runs scored
TP: 811 runs scored
ER: 735 runs scored
FR: 1,673 hits
JV: 1,586 hits
TP: 1,653 hits
ER: 1,604 hits
FR: 318 doubles
JV: 344 doubles
TP: 281 doubles
ER: 241 doubles
FR: 50 triples
JV: 17 triples
TP: 48 triples
ER: 133 triples
FR: 324 home runs
JV: 257 home runs
TP: 258 home runs
ER: 46 home runs
FR: 1,009 runs batted in
JV: 830 runs batted in
TP: 1,024 runs batted in
ER: 707 runs batted in
FR: 161 stolen bases
JV: 72 stolen bases
TP: 29 stolen bases
ER: 182 stolen bases
FR: 698 bases on balls
JV: 996 bases on balls
TP: 563 bases on balls
ER: 324 bases on balls
FR: 789 strike outs
JV: 1,087 strike outs
TP: 1,150 strike outs
ER: 146 strike outs
FR: .303 batting average
JV: .313 batting average
TP: .285 batting average
ER: .339 batting average
FR: .389 on-base percentage
JV: .428 on-base percentage
TP: .348 on-base percentage
ER: .385 on-base percentage
FR: .554 slugging percentage
JV: .541 slugging percentage
TP: .484 slugging percentage
ER: .475 slugging percentage
Tony Perez is widely recognized a being the model for a Reds batter driving in runs. "An RBI Machine" is how he is often described. "Clutch," too. Sure, Tony Perez has the lead in games played, plate appearances and at bats, and that matters, but he also drove in more runs than Robinson and Votto. I was surprised to see just how close Perez comes to Robie in hits (just 20 hits separate them; acknowledging Perez had more at bats), triples [?! Doggie?!] and that the Mayor of Riverfront still has, today, a 1 home run lead on Joey Votto (yes, almost 800 more at bats than Votto, too).
Edd Roush was the better hitter for average, but he played in an era when batting average was nearly (but certainly not all) all that mattered. His slugging percentage is shockingly comparable (Dead Ball Era, remember) to that of Perez and his OBP is a near match to that of Robinson. Edd Roush's microscopic strike out total locks up his status as the better pure hitter among this group. The stolen base and triples edge held by Roush further illustrates the different era in which he played and the shorter schedule no doubt hurts Edd cumulatively relative to the others.
That all said, Robinson and/or Votto still retain leadership over Perez and Roush in slugging percentage, on-base percentage, home runs, doubles, hits and runs scored. Votto and Robinson were each awarded more honors (most of which did not exist in the days of Edd Roush, this must be considered).
If this contest were a horse race, it would be a photo finish between Frank Robinson and Joey Votto. This race steward calls it Frank Robinson, by a nose......
.....Today.
Ask me again in 2020.
Let's conclude with this summation;
Frank Robinson is the greatest all-time right-handed batting Cincinnati Red.
Joey Votto is the greatest all-time left-handed batting Cincinnati Red.
Pete Rose is the greatest all-time switch-hitting Cincinnati Red.
Johnny Bench is the greatest all-time overall Cincinnati Red.
Roll the credits!
